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MISSION PLANNING: Step 9c Home Team Insertions

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MISSION PLANNING: Step 9a The general make up of the team
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MISSION PLANNING: Step 9c Home Team Insertions
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Posted by: tire iron Mar 2 2007, 10:00 PM

OK gents - I think you know the drill - right??

We are planning the insertion of the Home Team.

Go ahead and start - ask questions as you go.

cheers

tire iron

Posted by: PipeRain Mar 2 2007, 10:04 PM

Okay, since the TL Recon team reported that outside the enclaves was virtually deserted at night, I would say the Home Team should move entirely at night to their ORP. Much less risk of being "made" in transit, much lower risk of anyone who is frinedly to any Animal "agents" on our side of the river giving up the teams presence and activities, and much lower risk of being spotted from across the river while assuming their ORP position. Additionally, the Home Team will be able to asses which of the specific buildings to hole up in, as it would seem that if they are gonna be occupied, it will most likely be at night. I think we should leave exactly which building to setup the ORP in to the Home Team TL and ATL, and they can radio that decision back to Higher at the compound. They will after all be the ones on scene, with the clearest picture of what may have changed since the TL Recon.

Due to the new knowledge of the enclaves, the routes have changed. Some have gotten longer, some have become more direct. Since most of the homes appear to be uninhabited, I don't see a problem with using yards, fences, landscaping etc for cover while moving, and if the roads are choked with debris, it may well lessen the risk of an injury enroute (eg. twisted ankles etc.). The routes are planned to stay away from the enclaves as much as practically possible, simply to avoid being seen by anyone. While people may seem friendly to a couple guys on bikes, four guys wearing and carrying everything they need for two weeks, plus long guns may give rise to very different reactions.

Keeping with the idea of letting the TL and ATL decide how best to conduct the mission, I don't think we should get too hung up on exactly following the routes, but if they move more than a block off the route, they should let Higher know whats going on in case a QRT needs to head out and bail them out. Even with gasoline or diesel at a premium, I do think a prepped and ready to go vehicle should be at the disposal of the QRT in case the Home Team needs an "extraction".

It may be jumping ahead a bit, but I believe that if possible the Home team should communicate back to Higher via voice while enroute for expediancy, but go by coded phrase via Morse code once onsite at the selected ORP, on a variety of predetermined frequencies.

Since the routes are much broader, the image is bigger even than usual, and the exact streets are harder to make out due to pixelation. I will post the image here now, and add the route specifics later, unless we want to change them, in which case I will re-map the post the route specifics.

http://img138.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hometeamroutemap2ro2.jpg

Posted by: Pilgrim Mar 2 2007, 10:47 PM

My first question is, just when do we decide exactly who is going?

I second the notion that we leave under the cover of darkness.

Posted by: PipeRain Mar 4 2007, 05:52 PM

QUOTE (Pilgrim @ Mar 2 2007, 06:47 PM) *
My first question is, just when do we decide exactly who is going?

I second the notion that we leave under the cover of darkness.


My understanding was that we were sending four men to the Home Team ORP, and ten to do the actual recon.

If we are to decide who is to go, maybe we should best see what our actual assets are?

So to that end two questions for tire iron:

ONE:
"Are there any individuals among our group with actual recon experience? If so what type?"
  • Actual SF/Force Recon-type recon experience?
  • Line-type infantry recon experience?
  • Para-Rescue or similar "behind-the-lines" training or experience?
  • Other relevant training or experience?

If there are any with this type of experience, how many with this level of experience or training?
If they have training but no practical experience, how would we rate the throoughness of their training?

My point here being, if we have two or more folks with real-world experience, we may well want to consider tasking one of these folks for the Home Team and (obviously) one for the away team so that there is some real-world experience readily available for each team. As this relates to the Home Team, there would be at least one person who could quickly transfer some of their knowlege to team mates in situ in a practical sense, as well as be a strong asset to quick, good decision making if things get sideways.

TWO:
"Has there been training conducted among our personnel for either this specific mission, or general training of a relevant nature previous to the decision to engage in this mission? If so, to what extent?"

Posted by: SuperD4K Mar 4 2007, 07:09 PM

I am in agreement with piperain on operating at night and leaving the actual ORP selection to the TL.

Posted by: tire iron Mar 5 2007, 02:20 PM

OK - the O.C. has real world reconnaissance and combat experience - and has trained the O.C. team.

In addition - there are 4 combat vets on the OC team. One USMC grunt - one US Ranger - both with two combat tours in Iraq/Afghanistan - one US Army MT guy that had a tour in Iraq - and one US Air Force security guy that had a tour in Iraq too.

With regards to training and mindset - the USMC grunt and the Ranger are about equal. The only thing a Ranger has over a USMC grunt is the Ranger can parachute - which means nothing to us now.

The MT and Airforce guy are good solid guys.

The rest of the OC pool have been trained the same as the 4 above - but lack any real world experience.

At this time - you may want to flesh out what the make-up of the teams are going to be.

1. Home team personnel and make-up
2. Away team personnel and make-up
3. QRF team personnel and make-up

This won't be in stone - but it should be roughed in a bit more than what we have done so far.

How this would happen for real - is the three TL's would come to a meeting with the OC - and hash out who they want doing what. Each TL will go for the best men for thier team - which is thier job - and the OC ensures that the best get put where they will do the best for the overall effort.

So - I am the OC - tell me who you want doing what....

cheers

tire iron

Posted by: PipeRain Mar 6 2007, 02:03 PM

OK, before I go there though, would the Home Team possibly be having to act as a QRF for the Away Team got hit? I would think that would influence how the personnel rosters would stack up.

Posted by: tire iron Mar 6 2007, 02:17 PM

Good question - but "NO" - the Home Team will NOT be part of the QRF. The Home Team will most probably help vector the QRF to the Away Team though...

cheers

tire iron

Posted by: PipeRain Mar 6 2007, 03:55 PM

OK then, back to The Thotful Spot...

Posted by: SuperD4K Mar 6 2007, 08:11 PM

Tire Iron, do you think the fact that the stated mission of Rangers is seizure of a hostile airfield which is usually behind enemy lines, versus the stated mission of a Marine grunt (even though this is changing) is seizure and breakout from a hostile beachhead would have any affect on who to select for the away team, even tough in regards to training the Ranger and the Marine are about equal?

To my way of thinking I would put the Ranger in charge of the away team, and have the Marine in charge of the QRF. I would think the Marine would have a little bit more experience with a breaking through type situation than the Ranger.

I was thinking this way because I saw how in Panama they sent Navy Seals after Noriega's plane instead of Rangers. They said how in regards of capability it may not have mattered but that the task at hand was one that Navy Seals did not train for. Does this make sense?

Posted by: tire iron Mar 6 2007, 08:24 PM

SD4K,

There is nothing wrong at all with your logic. I may have a differing opinion - but I like the way you're are using your brain.

cheers

tire iron

Posted by: SuperD4K Mar 6 2007, 08:41 PM

Well I would put either the Marine or the Ranger in charge of the Away team with the other in charge of the QRF. Since it seems that both of them have roughly equal combat experience, either one would probably be able to lead the Away team.

Also what exactly does an Army MT do?

Posted by: PipeRain Mar 6 2007, 09:01 PM

One last question, and I think I'll be set with my requests.

What vehicles do we have available for the QRT?

We don't by chance have a Huey with full fuel tanks and a competent pilot team do we?

Posted by: SuperD4K Mar 6 2007, 09:40 PM

Add in a Dillon M134 minigun to that Huey and we are in business!!!

Posted by: PipeRain Mar 6 2007, 09:55 PM

Well, I serously doubt we will get that lucky, but it could figure prominently into a extraction scenario if need be. On the flipside, it could be a serious detriment to being left alone later on, as every ninnyhammer for 100 miles that heard about it would want to come and take it.

Posted by: tire iron Mar 6 2007, 10:23 PM

SD4K,

MT is Motor Transport. The men that keep all the vehicles running.



PR,


We have some pick-up trucks that our MT man and also some welders are converting into "technicals" - but without the belt fed in the back. They WILL mount FN's, M1a's or HK91's - as we have quite a number of those around with lots of mags and ammo.

cheers

tire iron

Posted by: SuperD4K Mar 7 2007, 12:14 AM

Okay I thought that was what MT stood for. Then I would probably put the Air Force security guy in charge of the Home Team. This would leave the MT guy back at base to continue the work of "Technical" conversion as well as to make sure the vehicles made ready for the QRF are in tip top shape.

Posted by: PipeRain Mar 8 2007, 04:23 PM

OK, heres what I would like to see, and why.

Firstly, I would like to see the Marine as the Away Team TL, and the Air Force guy as the Home Team TL. I think the Army MT guy should be the Away Team TL, and the Home Team TL should pick his own ATL.

The Air Force guy is experienced standing security watches in a combat zone, which is to a great extent similar to what he will need to bne doing here, thus I am confident tha this would be a good fit.

I think our Ranger Friend should be the TL for the QRF. This way we have competent, experienced cool heads in the highest stress areas, but if God Forbid, the Home & Away Teams get annihilated before the QRF can pull them out of the fire, we don't lose all our proven combat leadership on one op.

As to team makeup, we had talked about using four men as the Home Team, and 8-10 for the away team. I think to expect four men to carry 24/7 watches for give or take 14 days is gonna drag them down too much, and by day 8 or so, they will not be as sharp as they need to be. To that end, I would say we add a fifth man to the Home Team, and run split watches, so that everyones shift overlaps. That way there's some variety of perspective and personality, the team stays fresher overall and its not a hugely larger number.

As to staffing level for the Away Team, I'm a little less sure on that one. How many OP/LP's do we plan to run in and around the park, how close will the Away Team ORP be to the recon areas, all that stuff is gonna impact the numbers necessary to carry out the mission, but still be discreet. I can't imagine the number to be less than 8, but I expect it will be 10 or possibly even 12. Eight men, will allow for two OP/LP's or scout-type recon patrols, one ORP element, and one resting element. That seems to me like its gonna be pretty tough to cover the whole of the park area, as well as get a handle on what the Animals are up to day-to-day. On the flipside, a 10 or 12 man element gets unweildy really really quick,and the chance of compromise skyrockets. I would be comfortable with sending 8 men as a minimum if we can cover our target properly, but more than that makes me really nervous. I don't have any good answers here, but I do have these thoughts. Anyone else wanna chime in?

(Note: All team selections proposals are done with the idea in mind that the TL for each team, and the QRF have final over-ride say in team makeup, providing the mission capability is not compromised in the eyes of the CO. These men need to be comfortable together and trustworthy to each other, to the extent that the mission capability is not compromised.)

Posted by: SuperD4K Mar 10 2007, 12:43 PM

On the other thread we had pretty much settled on 6 men for the Away team. What I think we were planning on doing is having ONE LP/OP at a time, but moving that LP/OP as needed. Maybe it would be wise to increase the number of men on the Home team to 6 also to help offset the fatigue issues.

Anyone else have an opinion?

Posted by: PipeRain Mar 11 2007, 11:08 PM

Well, just for arguments sake... boxing.gif

Can six men really cover the target area adequately? Even if they shift around? My thinking is, if we run three LP/OP's at all times, have two men acting as ORP, and two reporting/eating/resting thats still 10 men. If we cut that down to two LP/OP's, thats still eight men. I think its important to not overtax either team, fatigue can be a killer, literally. However, we don't want so many guys running around that it raises our profile dangerously.

As to the Home Team, I think if five guys run on an overlapping shift schedule, they should be able to keep alert, and keep good overwatch on the recon area.

The other consideration is, we don't want to deplete our folks back at the compound too much either. It would be seriously bad news if the Animals decided to run a serious raid on the compound, and we've got over half of our more experienced/trained/"ready" personnel out on a mission. Granted, according to our http://www.modernminuteman.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=932 we have around 100 under arms, I still wouldn't want to greatly diminish the resources of training/experience too greatly back home.

Posted by: SuperD4K Mar 13 2007, 06:56 PM

Well you have to strike a balance between effectivness and stealth. With six men, you would have two men at the LP/OP, two men on security and radio, and two men sleeping. This is probably as good as its going to get.

Posted by: PipeRain Mar 13 2007, 07:39 PM

Okay then a question for tire iron:

Does the number of persons on the Away team affect the number on the Home Team? Or am I just getting wound up in something that isn't really relevant to where we are at right now in the planning stage?

No point in creating a bunch of contention for no good purpose eh? cool.gif boxing.gif

Posted by: tire iron Mar 13 2007, 07:58 PM

I like even numbers. Always have. It stems back from my training. ALWAYS have a battle buddy with you. ALWAYS. Odd numbers don't allow that.

I like 6 man recon teams. IMHO four is too few - 8 starts to get unweildy.

OTOH - SEALs operate in 8 man teams - SF A Teams are twelve men - so my opinion is my opinion from a USMC Reconnaissance perspective. There is no single right or wrong way here - but I am more comfortable with 6's for recon teams - Home and Away.

So - were my call - it would be 6 men on each Recon Team.

cheers

tire iron

Posted by: Pilgrim Mar 13 2007, 08:56 PM

I like 6 men per team as well.

6 men should be plenty.

Posted by: SuperD4K Mar 13 2007, 10:04 PM

PR there's no contention going LOL, where all here to ask questions. Its the only way were gonna get better LOL!!!!

Oh I get a laugh out of this boxing.gif every time!!!

Posted by: tire iron Mar 15 2007, 12:45 PM

Are you guys waiting on me for anything?

cheers

tire iron

Posted by: PipeRain Mar 15 2007, 01:39 PM

QUOTE (tire iron @ Mar 15 2007, 09:45 AM) *
Are you guys waiting on me for anything?


Actually, I was just coming here to post! smile.gif

If six guys will be able to adequately cover the RZ, then I don't see a problem with it, and a nextra body at the Home Team ORP can't hurt.

So I'd just modify my previous posts to reflect the updated numbers, and leave the rest of the observations as I posted 'em...

Posted by: SuperD4K Mar 16 2007, 10:37 AM

Okay so are we going to use the modified Green Route as the primary insertion route? Also have we modified the waypoints to better suit the modified route? Also what are we going to call the waypoints? Should we use Check Point 1, 2, etc. or use different code names for each waypoint?

Tire Iron do you have an opinion on use of waypoints or what they should be called?

Posted by: tire iron Mar 16 2007, 11:22 AM

Waypoints - gotta use 'em!

I don't really care what you call them - provided:

EVERYONE knows them

EVERYONE know them

EVERYONE knows them


*everyone* means everyone that has ANYTHING to do with the mission.

cheers

tire iron

Posted by: PipeRain Mar 16 2007, 01:33 PM

Allrighty then, back to the "Map Room" and I'll get potential waypoints banged out for us to cuss 'n discuss by Monday. Apologies for the delay, but I gotta get my class for our FTX finished, and we have to go do some work at the training area to get it ready on Saturday, so its a busy weekend for me!

Posted by: Pilgrim Mar 17 2007, 08:29 AM

QUOTE (SuperD4K @ Mar 16 2007, 08:37 AM) *
Also what are we going to call the waypoints? Should we use Check Point 1, 2, etc. or use different code names for each waypoint?


I would suggest naming the waypoints Alpha, Bravo, Charlie,... etc... in ascending order starting from Homebase.

Thanks PR for taking the "bull by the horns", and getting us a map visual to use. thumbsup1.gif

Posted by: SuperD4K Mar 18 2007, 01:29 PM

I think Alpha, Bravo, Charlie sounds good, but does anyone think that it might get confused if we have to spell something using the phonetic alphabet?

Posted by: PipeRain Mar 21 2007, 08:56 PM

Allright. At long last, here we go. Routes, with proposed waypoints:

http://img338.imageshack.us/my.php?image=htinsertwaypointsnj2.jpg

GREEN ROUTE

  1. Leave compound from north, northeast pathway, onto W Fort St heading northwest.
  2. Proceed along W Fort Street to CHECKPOINT BASHFUL, the intersection of W Fort Street and North 19th Street.
  3. From CHECKPOINT BASHFUL, turn Southwest on N 19th Street.
  4. Proceed Southwest one block to W Hays Street, then turn Northwest on W Hays Street.
  5. Proceed Northwest eight (8) blocks along W Hays street to CHECKPOINT DOC. at the intersection of W Hays Street and N 17th Street.
  6. From CHECKPOINT DOC, proceed one block southwest to W Franklin Street, then turn northwest on W Franklin for one block.
  7. At N 18th Street turn southwest for two blocks to dirt alley extending northwest from N 18th Street, (approximately two blocks).
  8. At alleyway, proceed northwest along alley to end of alley.
  9. At the end of the alley, turn southwest, crossing W State Street onto W Pleasanton Ave.
  10. Proceed west on W Pleasanton Ave to CHECKPOINT DOPEYat the intersection of W Pleasanton Ave and N 22nd Street.
  11. From CHECKPOINT DOPEY proceed south on N 22nd Street, crossing W Fairview Ave and S 18th Street to CHECKPOINT GRUMPY on S 23rd Street.
  12. From CHECKPOINT GRUMPY, proceed east, then southeast along W Front Ave to the intersection of W Front Ave and N 14th Street which is CHECKPOINT HAPPY.
  13. From CHECKPOINT HAPPY proceed south-southeast to the intersection of S 14th Street and W Myrtle Street, CHECKPOINT Sneezy.
  14. From CHECKPOINT SNEEZY proceed to CHECKPOINT GOLF, at the intersection of W Grand Avenue and S Lee Street, CHECKPOINT SNOW WHITE.
  15. From CHECKPOINT SNOW WHITE proceed to the designated ORP as determined by the TL.
I am posting this now, so we can go over it and see if this is correct so far. This takes way longer than I though to suss out exactly where to put waypoints and how to describe everything so it is absolutely clear, and I don't want to spend another two days (in between tasks at work and such) just to have to scrap it and completely re-do it. So, lets amke sure its right so far and go from there.

Fair enough?

So:

A) ti, is this detailed enough to be clear?
B) are the waypoints properly placed or should they be done different somehow?

and

C) Guys, do you want to see something different?

{Edited with updated Waypoint Names}

Posted by: Pilgrim Mar 21 2007, 10:15 PM

Very good PR. Good idea to wait to be sure before doing any map work.

A lot happening between Bravo and Charlie, but does not seem too overly complicated.

Eight is enough check points for me. They appear to be well placed from my novice viewpoint, so I'm good with it.

Posted by: PipeRain Mar 21 2007, 10:23 PM

Thanks Pilgrim!

I forgot to put the map I had done so far up, so I went back and edited it in.

However, I do want to be sure we are all good with it before I spend another few hours doing the rest of it and slow us down more, and do it wrong.

Clear as mud?

Posted by: SuperD4K Mar 21 2007, 11:16 PM

I think it looks great Pipe Rain, but I do agree with Pilgrim that there is a lot going on between Bravo and Charlie, Maybe we should add one somewhere on 18th St, but they are relatively close so it probably wont be necessary.

Also a little off topic but didnt you have an FTX this weekend? How did it go? Are you going to be posting an AAR?

Posted by: Pilgrim Mar 21 2007, 11:35 PM

Looked at it a second time, very closely, and I'm good to go with it.

Posted by: PipeRain Mar 22 2007, 12:27 AM

QUOTE (SuperD4K @ Mar 21 2007, 08:16 PM) *
I think it looks great Pipe Rain, but I do agree with Pilgrim that there is a lot going on between Bravo and Charlie, Maybe we should add one somewhere on 18th St, but they are relatively close so it probably wont be necessary.


Well, here's my thinkin' on that. I didn't want to slow the team down too much, or have to drag them too much further north to keep clear of the "Enclave" so thats why I figured one at the furthest northern point on the route would work. Like usual tho, I'm willin' to be convinced otherwise...

QUOTE (SuperD4K @ Mar 21 2007, 08:16 PM) *
Also a little off topic but didnt you have an FTX this weekend? How did it go? Are you going to be posting an AAR?


Actually, its this coming weekend, and yes we will be posting an AAR, probably about next Friday or so. We work together to put our AAR's together online, so it takes a bit to get it done.

Posted by: tire iron Mar 22 2007, 12:58 AM

Keep in mind with the checkpoints you don't HAVE to stop at them. You will stop where you need to stop - and where it makes sense to stop. You'll know that when you get there.

Check-points are there as points of reference - and are strickly "landmarks" to help give your support units a very fast way to find you.

Example:

"We are two blocks north of checkpoint Charlie - and we are recieving fire from an area XX streets west from checkpoint Delta".


Now I'll use this example to amplify SD4K's idea that the names of the checkpoints ought to be different than Alpha, Bravo, etc.

Lets say you had to leave the route and are trying to E&E back to base - but two of your men get hit - and you CAN'T go any further - and you have to explain where you are - got the scenario??

Team - "B1 - this is HT1 - we are two streets south west of checkpoint Charlie - how copy?"

Base - "Roger - great copy - what is your exact location?"

Team - "We are on Bravo, Alpha, Gulf and Charlie, Alpha, Delta, Echo - how copy?"


Yeah - I exagerated the names of the streets - but I think you get the point - the HT spelled phonetically the intersection of Bag and Cade street - but between bad comms and gunfire - it may cause HUGE confusion in the rear - cause they just named SIX different way-points.

So - you may want to change the names of the waypoints.

With regards to the location of the way-points - I might have made some different ones - but I have no heartburn at all with what you have there.

I would call the Green route a "wrap" - and maybe just change the names.

cheers

tire iron

Posted by: PipeRain Mar 22 2007, 01:18 AM

Hmmm.... OK.

Anyone remember all the names of the seven dwarves?

One iteration of our network at the shop had all the machines named after the horsemen of the apocalypse and the seven deadly sins, but I don't think anone wants to admit to being halfway between lust and avarice and taking heavy fire from gluttony...

Posted by: tire iron Mar 22 2007, 01:46 AM

QUOTE (PipeRain @ Mar 21 2007, 11:18 PM) *
I don't think anone wants to admit to being halfway between lust and avarice and taking heavy fire from gluttony...


That is funny as heck! LOL

It would also work too!

cheers

tire iron

Posted by: Pilgrim Mar 22 2007, 03:10 PM

Well how about calling them Do, Re, Me, Fa, So, La, Ti ...

Posted by: PipeRain Mar 22 2007, 05:22 PM

Another question for ti springs to mind:

Shouldn't we use unique names for each waypoint? In other words different routes have distinct waypoint names that don;t correspond to any other waypoint?

If the team is in serious trouble I wuld think it would be clearer of each and every waypoint had its own name as opposed to sharing the names across different routes.

Posted by: tire iron Mar 23 2007, 01:24 AM

Yeah - just remember that the team has (should) memorize them so they can recall them quickly without having to consult a map.

It can definitely be done - especially if you choose names that are already well known - in other words - don't make any words up - use Names, or Towns, or States, or Songs, or Bands, or Movies, or Sports figures, etc, etc, etc.

cheers

tire iron

Posted by: PipeRain Mar 23 2007, 02:25 AM

Well then I would say that each route's checkpoint names should follow a theme. That way in a hurry, the team can call in "We are taking heavy fire, 150 yards west of checkpoint 'Dopey'..." and the QRF knows exactly which routhe they are on.

There are 8 checkpoints on Green Route, so I would say Snow White and the seven dwarves would fit that one well.

Doc
Grumpy
Happy
Sneezy
Bashful
SleepyTired
Dopey
Snow White

Posted by: tire iron Mar 23 2007, 10:38 AM

Do a few radio checks to see if "sleepy" and "sneezy" are different enough.

You don't want words that sound too much alike or it leads to confusion.

With the above two - they share the same first sound, the middle sound and the last sound of each word is the same too.

cheers

tire iron

Posted by: PipeRain Mar 23 2007, 12:27 PM

Allright, see edits in above post re: Checkpoint names.

Posted by: tire iron Mar 23 2007, 12:36 PM

Seems like it will work - you still need to radio check them with all team members - cause some team members pronounce words differently than others....but lets say that has been done and there is no problems - and go with what you have.

cheers

tire iron

Posted by: SuperD4K Mar 23 2007, 03:21 PM

That is a great Idea Pipe Rain, having each route themed differently. Like pick for different movies for each route. And the seven dwarves make great check points too!

Posted by: PipeRain Mar 23 2007, 06:13 PM

Well gents, I was hoping to get this done today, but thanks to work demands, I was not able to. I will be at FTX until late Sunday, so you probably won't see much of me til Monday. Feel free to jump in with this and name/describe routes/checkpoints, otherwise I will be back at it next week!

Posted by: SuperD4K Mar 25 2007, 04:12 PM

Can anyone think of any other movies that have such memorable characters or features. I can think of planets from the Star Wars movies, or the planets themselves, Ie Mercury, Venus, Earth etc.

Posted by: Pilgrim Mar 25 2007, 10:12 PM

Red Dawn comes to mind first.

Let's see...

Jed, Matt, Robert, Danny, Daryl, Aardvark, Erica, and Toni.

What a coincidence, there just happens to be eight.

All names sound different enough to be acceptable.

Go, or No Go?

Posted by: PipeRain Mar 27 2007, 01:49 PM

Okay, onward and upward...

YELLOW ROUTE

  1. Proceeding out of the compound, head south southeast to E Garrison Road, then turn southwest to W Fort Street and CHECKPOINT JED.
  2. From CHECKPOINT JED, proceed southeast on W Fort Street, following it onto E Fort Street.
  3. Proceed down E Fort Street until it turns back southwest and become N Avenue B.
  4. Proceed south southeast on N Avenue B to the three-way intersection of N Avenue B, E Idaho Street and E Warm Springs Ave, which is CHECKPOINT MATT.
  5. From CHECKPOINT MATT proceed south on S Broadway Ave to the three way intersection of E Broadway Ave, E Front Street and E Morrison Knudsen Plaza Drive, which is CHECKPOINT ROBERT
  6. From CHECKPOINT ROBERT, proceed northwest along E Front Street to a row of brown roofed buildings in a line pointed southwest, on the southwest side of the road. These buildings will be within 100 feet of the intersection and CHECKPOINT ROBERT.
  7. Leaving E Front Street, proceed southwest, using these buildings and the vegetation around them for concealment, until reaching E Myrtle Street, across which an entrance to Julia Davis Park, and CHECKPOINT DANNY.
  8. From CHECKPOINT DANNY follow W Julia Davis Drive, bearing ever southward, to a copse of parroximately ten (10) trees just east of a group of park buildings and open areas. THis will be CHECKPOINT DARYL.
  9. From CHECKPOINT DARYL, leaving W Julia Davis Drive proceed northwest, between the park buildings toward the body of water bisecting the park from southwest to northeast.
  10. Cross the water either across the footbridge (if available) or across the low point in the stream at the narrow juncture between shores slightly southwest of the footbridge.
  11. After crossing the water, proceed northwest through the parking area back toward W Julia Davis Avenue, and follow it around toward the western entrance of the park. At the loop junction of W Julia Davis Avenue is CHECKPOINT AARDVARK.
  12. From CHECKPOINT AARDVARK, proceed out of the park, crossing S Capitol Boulevard onto W River Street to the intersection of W River Street and S 9th Stree, which is CHECKPOINT ERICA.
  13. From CHECKPOINT ERICA, proceed to the ORP.


I think "Yellow Route" could use some tweaking, pariticularly through the second half of Julia Davis Park, and around the intersection of E Front Street, S Broadway Avenue and E Morrison Knudson Plaza Drive.

Posted by: PipeRain Mar 27 2007, 04:23 PM

RED ROUTE

  1. Leaving our compound via E Robbins Road, cross W Front Street to W Washington St and proceed northwest on W Washington Street to the intersection of N 8th Street and W Washington Street, which is CHECKPOINT DEATH.
  2. From CHECKPOINT DEATH, proceed southwest on S 8th Street to W Idaho Street, which is CHECKPOINT FAMINE.
  3. From CHECKPOINT FAMINE, continue southwest on S 8th Street to the intersection of E Front Street and S 8th Street, which is CHECKPOINT PESTILENCE.
  4. From CHECKPOINT PESTILENCE proceed southwest, across E Front Street to the intersection of S 8th Street and W Fulton Street, which is CHECKPOINT WAR.
  5. From CHECKPOINT WAR proceed northwest on W Fulton/W Miller Street to the intersection of W Miller Street and S 10th Street which is CHECKPOINT MILLENNIUM.
  6. From CHECKPOINT MILLENNIUM, proceed southwest on S 10th Street to W River Street, then northwest on W River Street to the ORP.

Posted by: SuperD4K Mar 31 2007, 10:43 AM

Looks good to me!

Posted by: tire iron Mar 31 2007, 11:09 AM

All right - now plan how the Home Team is going to get to the ORP.

How do they leave friendly lines?

If you must re-enter friendly lines sooner than anticipated - how do you do so without your own defensive force shooting you?

How do they link up if they leave seperately?

Patrol formations?

Actions on enemy contact all along the way?

Actions of compromise by non-combatants along the way?

etc., etc., etc.

cheers

tire iron

Posted by: PipeRain Apr 3 2007, 03:03 AM

tire iron! You heartless taskmaster! This is starting to seem suspiciously like work.

Anyway, I would say that the QRF, or at least portions of it, escort the Home Team to the perimiter of the compound. This way the QRF "knows" the team. If memory serves, the Home Team was going to go out in either straight civvy, or partial civvy dress, and this will let them see up close who is wearing what and how they look in the gear and clothing they will have. The QRF should be on standby at the push-off point, in case the Home Team is compromised early and has to come back they are likely to return the way they came, at least early in the patrol, and this would allow the QRF to head out to meet them quickly if need be.

I think the Home Team should leave the compound after darkfall, at or about 7 PM (19:00). This will allow them to get distance from the compound before moonrise, and make most of their transit using moonlight.

If the Home Team is to re-enter the compound, or join up with the QRF enroute, radio contact should be made if at all possible. Current position, direction of travel, number in party, any casualties and reason for return, or any other pertinent information should be relayed. A "Rally Point" should be established, whether it is a predeterminied waypoint, or some other point clearly identified by both the Home Team and the QRF. If it is to be the push-off point or any other point around the compound this should be determined as well. Other methods of signal could be smoke screen or whistles. Also, a verbal challenge/response should be setup for final contact, and these codes should never be transmitted over radio in order to avoid compromise. A thought occours to me, controlled light could be a signal as well. If the metalshop guys can fab up a tube, say six inches long, the diameter of whcihc will allow it to slip firmly over a Pelican or MiniMag light or whatever. If it has a plate an inch or so down from one end, and that plate has a small hole in it, it will convert a flashlight to a highly directional signalling device. Predetermined "Blink Codes" or Morse Code could be used to facilitate a safe linkup or return to base.

Since the home team is only six men, I think they should avoid being spit up if at all possible. However, it seems that that kind of a directive is simply guranteed to force them to need to so, oh well. It would seem to me that essentially the same techniques could be used to re-connect as would be used for re-entering "freindly lines". However, different challenge/response codes, as well as different radio codes should be used, and likewise not transmitted or used unless absolutely necessary, and then only used once.

Patrol formation should be as the situation dictates. I would recommend a wedge formation in travelling overwatch movement until the TL determines that a speedier form of movement desireable. Column formation may be useful early on in the patrol, especially on the first legs, prior to the point halfway between the second and third waypoints on Green Route or the second waypoint on Yellow Route. After that terrain and lack of concealment would seem to dictate at least a travelling overwatch wedge, if not bouding overwatch.

If potential OPFOR's are detected, all effort should be made to avoid contact and continue the mission. If neither option is available, the team should notify the QRF and E&E back to the compound. If contact is made, and the OPFOR is not annihilated immediately, the team should make all effort to conduct a fighting retreat and link up with the QRF, rather than stand a pitched battle on their own.

Compromise by non-combatants should be handled on a case-by-case basis. Generally, if the mission can still be accomplished, it should be. Simple observation of the team in passing should not be grounds for scrubbing the mission. A challenge and halt by one of the enclaves will require at least a change of route. An apparent retreat, and changing to another route may well be the best course of action. Firing upon otherwise non-combatants is to be avoided if at all possible, up to and including retreat. We do not want to alienate the enclaves, as they can well provide valuable trade, information or support later. We have neither the desire nor the resouces to engage in "scorched earth" diplomacy. However, due to the realtive unknown nature of the enclaves, we do not under any circumstances want to let them know where we are going, or what we are doing. If necessary, the Home Team can present themselves as a neutral "Security Sweep" for the good of all, on a routine patrol. However, in all cases, avoid contact by lying dog or re-route if necessary, and engage in conversation only if unavoidable. If the enclaves are running their own security patrols, the Home Team should lie dog, and let them pass without contact.

In any case, any contact or observation should be radiod back to the compound giving all relevant data and current disposition of the Home Team.

Regular contact should be made back to the compound via radio and encoded phrase for standard messge traffic. Negative contact / continued passage reports can be made via squelch-break hourly to avoid noise signature. If sitreps are more than five minutes late, the comms at the compound should attempt to rasie the Home Team via voice communication and if another five minutes goes by without contact, the QRF should be dispatched along their last known route to their last known point. Sounds of OPFOR contact (sustained gunfire etc.) along the route should also scramble the QRF while radio contact is established and furhter course of action determined.

Should a team member be injured enroute to the point where he cannot continue the mission, a smaller QRF may be dispatched to retrieve the team member, and provide a replacement, at the TL's discretion.

If the Home Team is unable to reach the ORP and be in place prior to first light, they should find a place to hole up until darkfall, radio the compound and proceed again the next night. Watches should be stood at 50% unless the team leader deems a higher level is justified or necessary. Sitreps should be radioed back as described earlier during the entire time the team is in transit, even if holed up.

I'm sure there is more, if I can think of any, I'll post it.

In all matters regarding the team's mission, once the team leaves the compound, the Team Leader has final say in mission conduct, including routes aborting or continuing the mission, how the mission is completed etc.

Edited to add blue content

Posted by: SuperD4K Apr 5 2007, 07:38 PM

Sound great to me PR. I think that the SOP's and especially the formation notes seem like a good plan. The only thing that would have me worried is the using of squelch breaks to indicate no contact. To me this would seem easy for the command staff top miss and may unnecessarily scramble the QRF. Other than that the radio procedures seem good to go. Very well thought out Pipe Rain!!!

Posted by: PipeRain Apr 6 2007, 09:05 PM

Thanks!

Anyway, squelch breaks will work well. The guys at the commshack keep the volume up and the squelch down, and when the Home Team breaks squelch, it is as obvious as a hammer fall. The guys in the field keep the squelch up and the volume down until check-in time, then raise the volume just enough to be clear. Once the compound responds, the squelch goes back up, and the volume goes back down and they proceed. If you have a couple HT's try it, it works pretty good.

Check the "Blue Stuff" for other thoughts/updates.

Posted by: SuperD4K Apr 9 2007, 12:56 AM

Tire Iron if we had to write this up would be go through everything that happens at each checkpoint ie:


Base to Checkpoint Bashful
-Formation: Patrol wedge
-Speed: Traveling overwatch
-Communications: Squlech Break when Checkpoint is reached, voice communication to report deviation from plan
-If comes under hostile fire: break contact retreat to compound
-If spotted by NonCombatant: Continue mission
-etc,etc
Checkpoint Bashful to Checkpoint Doc
-Formation
-Speed
-Communication
etc etc


Just trying to get an organized way to right everything down. If there is a way that you would do it could you give us an example?

Posted by: tire iron Apr 9 2007, 12:23 PM


This is coming along just fine - I just have a few comments...

SD4K,

QUOTE
Tire Iron if we had to write this up would be go through everything that happens at each checkpoint ie:


Yes - but as the team becomes more experienced - you will get to the point it is all "S.O.P".



Here are some thoughts -

need to come up with a better way to signal at night than to carry an extra piece of gear (flash-light extender thing) Also - how do you know 'they" got the signal?

need to think of "enemy contact" in these terms:

1. Close Contact Front (what is the EXACT procedure you would do)
2. Close Contact Side (right and left)
3. Close Contact Rear
4. Far Contact Front
5. Far Contact Side
6. Far Contact Rear

This information needs to be addressed for every conceivable formation that team may find itself in.

Thats it for now...

cheers

tire iron

Posted by: PipeRain Apr 9 2007, 05:57 PM

Well, I guess its abck to "PipeRains Thotful Spot" and think-think-think! biggrin.gif

Posted by: SuperD4K Apr 9 2007, 11:04 PM

QUOTE (tire iron @ Apr 9 2007, 09:23 AM) *

need to think of "enemy contact" in these terms:

1. Close Contact Front (what is the EXACT procedure you would do)
2. Close Contact Side (right and left)
3. Close Contact Rear
4. Far Contact Front
5. Far Contact Side
6. Far Contact Rear

This information needs to be addressed for every conceivable formation that team may find itself in.

Thats it for now...

cheers

tire iron


Thanks Tire Iron that is a big help!! But to someone who does not know a basic reaction to the above, how would you do that? Obviously it is probably requires a bigger answer than what you could provide here, but it might make for an interesting topic in the Tactics forumn. Thanks again for all your help TI!

Posted by: tire iron Apr 12 2007, 09:41 PM

Hmmmm.......I don't know what to do here gents - I have been rolling this over in my mind trying to come up with a faster solution - but I haven't been able to - IA (Immediate Action) or AoC (Action on Contact) is a huge part of the planning process...........

Maybe I need to make some GI Joe threads that show how to do it....

We would shelve this project at this point until I can get all that done....

What say ye??

cheers

tire iron

Posted by: SuperD4K Apr 12 2007, 10:59 PM

I would definately be okay with that since I need the help LOL.

Posted by: tire iron Jun 10 2007, 10:39 AM

OK - using the information you learned in the IA thread - continue on in the planning process......

(We also need some means of communication at night......)

cheers

tire iron

Posted by: PipeRain Jun 16 2007, 02:37 AM

Well, my suggestion would be 2 meter HT's with eaubud/boom mics, based on our experience with them. An HT on one-quarter power will run for days, and give coverage of at least several hundred yards, with a spare battery for each radio, and a solar cell to recharge spares, the team could run virtually indefinitely on them.

The obvious disadvantage to an earbud is restriced hearing in that ear. This can be ameliorated to some extent across the team by alternating ears. In other words, going from point to drag, left, right, left, right, left, right, or however suits the team.

We have had some success with things like "Ranger Eyes" velcroed to the inside of a boonie hat and illuminated watches. However, these things must be used discreetly, using the singalers body as a shield in the case of the watches. Boonie hats are a very effectice shield, even to the sides, for Ranger Eyes.

Realisitically, at night (outside the use of radios as described above), communication must be greatly limited and a greater reliance must be put on simply following SOP's and the Mission Order in order to execute a mission properly. When travelling at night the team will of necessity be much closer together, and can call "Halt/Rally on Me" and communicate things such as taversing Danger Areas, route changes etc. at "breathr in the ear" levels. Additionally, slower movement can allow for greater situational awareness, and if the team is used to working together, and has well developed SOP's for things such as possible OPFOR sightings, IAD's etc. communication is not nearly as necessary for an untrained team.

Posted by: PipeRain Sep 6 2007, 02:33 AM

Okay, three months later, back at it.

Having conducted some tests with these techniques, as well as a fair amount of reading (for study purposes as opposed to recreational purposes with a side benefit of study) I would recommend that the "Home Team" rely primarily on SOP's and prior planning and drilling to response to OPFOR or "unknown" encounters. Great use should be made of "micro-terrain" to facilitate movement without being compromised. Initially this means slow. Very slow. Getting from the Compound to the ORP may well take more than one night on foot, and if that is the case the team is going to have to find a spot to hole up during daytime. Possible points would be Fairview Park, which is bounded by North 23rd and 24th streets on the west and east sides respectively and West Bannock Street and West Idaho Street on the north and south sides respectively. Perhaps a better option would be McCauley Park, at the NorthWest end of West Hayes street. This would be closer to the actual route, and is more densley vegetated.

Should the decision be made to stick with bicycle insertion, either McCauley Park of Fairview Park would make possible good rally points and at least somewhat defensible positions.

If in an RON/NDP the team should either lie in the alternate direction pattern described in http://www.modernminuteman.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=2323&pid=21339&st=0&#entry21339. If room allows, use a wagon wheel formation, to provide better instantaneous response in any direction, if area is an issue, use the "opposite directions sardine pattern". I believe that the team should consider themselves in denied territory at all times, due to the fact that we know so little about who is or may be in the teams AO. If the team is holed up and positioned physically next to each other, ther eis little or no need for any vocal communication, if the team is adequately planned, prepared and drilled prior to "Stepping off".

Another option might be to use an abandoned house along the route, but there is a great disadvantage in maeuverability if the team is compromised. On the flipside, it could provide greater concealment, and thus greater security. This would have to be a decision made on the ground at the time.

As far as night signalling goes, as much as possible, the need for signalling over distance must be avioded by either remaining in close proximity, or relying on predetermined SOP's that allow the team to deal with events and continue its mission. In the event that the team does need to signal over distance, light sticks may be used. The far greater preference would be to use mini-sticks, but if mini sticks are not available, judicious use of 100 mph tape can be used to limit the light emitting area of a larger light stick to a very small aperture.

Using a ministick, signalling can be accomplished by covering the ministick in a boonie hat, activating the stick and popping it in the mouth directly from the boonie hat. Using a green ministick in this manner, singalling can be accomplished by opening the lips to expose the end of the lightstick just enough to signal, using predetermined "blink codes". These codes would only need to cover a minimum of hand and arm signals, such as "All clear", "Stop/Halt", "Rally on me" and "Proceed".

Should the need arise for the team to split up in response to some tragic turn of events, at this point radio communication may be the only viable option, and 2 meter HT's with earbud/boom mivs or throat mics if available would be the best course of action. This would keep both hands free, and still allow somewhat discreet communication over distance.

Posted by: Romanknight Sep 6 2007, 02:17 PM

"Great use should be made of "micro-terrain" to facilitate movement without being compromised. Initially this means slow. Very slow. Getting from the Compound to the ORP may well take more than one night on foot, and if that is the case the team is going to have to find a spot to hole up during daytime."
Here's a thought: what about security through SPEED? We're talking organized opposition unlikely. Pick a route away from known concentrations of people, and move fast. Whomever you encounter, be it a "civilian" stuck as lone sentry or passer-bys, they'll be more surprised than you, which will allow you to either retreat, or pick a advantageous position and fight. By the time it goes up the "others"' chain of command -whatever that might be- you'll be at least a few blocks away, out of danger. "They" will know that some armed guys passed by, that's it, nothing more. If they are peaceful, they'll do nothing. If they're foe, then you'll have more problems on your hands, and you'll find out about it fast, but that would've happened anyway.
According to John Poole, this was a tactic used frequently by the NVA, and it worked well.

Posted by: tire iron Sep 6 2007, 02:33 PM

The mindset of the NVA is diametrically opposed to ours. They couldn't care less how many men were killed in any engagement. They literally couldn't care less.

I (I won't speak for anyone else but me) on the other hand hold the lives of my men in an almost sacred trust. I will not put anyone in harms way unless it is absolutely necessary - and then I will provide them with as much support as we can muster to help get them out if they run into snags.

Having said that - when I am planning a mission - I plan on virtually NO support. It goes along with my mindset of hoping, praying, working for the best - but planning for the worst.

There is a time for speed and violence of action - but it aint during the insertion of a recon mission.

cheers

tire iron

Posted by: Romanknight Sep 6 2007, 03:16 PM

Who said anything about recklessly sacrificing anybody? I'm not proposing frontal human wave attacks against fortified enemy positions, sorry! And, do not discredit what the NVA achieved, 'cause you can learn from them in light infantry tactics.
Are we talking a recon mission in the neighborhood, or a way for the "home team" to get to the ORP? Two different ball games, and the second mission would benefit more from careful planning, previous drill, and speed of movement thru the streets. Rapid movement, not mindless and reckless! Better yet, at night.
Now, moving slowly makes more sense in the dense cover of the jungle, than in the open streets of urban America. What do you do to cross a street? Lift one leg up, put the foot down, toes first, stop, look around (360*), then repeat the next leg? It will take forever to cross one street, you'll be exposed for a long time, give time for the bad guys (which you should've avoided in the first place!) to plan an ambush. How do you do that on a bike? Why a bike, if not to maximize your speed advantage? If you have to crouch in front of every window, sweat in front of every door, mentally exhaust yourself every time you cross a street, spend one night in a park, in what mental and physical state do you arrive at the ORP, and what's left in you to do the job you took all that trouble to get there for? Keep that in mind.
YMMV

Posted by: tire iron Sep 6 2007, 10:20 PM

rk,

First off - please follow along in the posts and post when it says to post. I believe you haven't completed #8 yet - and this thread is #10 C.

Secondly - when I first read your post about the NVA (post #69) - I took it for rushing in with abandon - which after reading your second post in this thread (post #71) I see that is not the case. For that I appologize and I appreaciate you clarifying your position.

You are absolutely right - no one (particularly PR) is suggesting that we move S L O W L Y across roads - or that we inch our way through intersections. LDA's are DANGER areas - and are not places to set up camp and spend some time.

So - the approach to take is to go from cover/concealment (CC) to CC. From one place of CC - you pick out your next place of CC (or "micro-terrain") while you are still behind the CC. One shouldn't dilly dally whilst moving from CC to CC. This may still take awhile - and I fully agree with PR's assessment that is may take quite a while to get to the ORP. Not once did I ever "rush" a recon mission - and I still have my skin with no extra holes in it - whereas I know of "rushed" operations that didn't fare so well.

OTOH - I can tell you from experience - that when one is hauling 2 weeks + of food, water, ammo, mission essential gear, etc. - one CAN'T move fast at all. Remember - this recon will be for 14 days +, with no resupply.

And let me clarify something - once the team leaves the compound - that is the START of the recon mission. Going to the ORP is just as much of a recon mission as reconnoitering the Animals compound. Once they leave the compound - they can rely on no one else except emergency extract from the compound. They must mentally prepare themselves for no support - or at least I would were I them. I have had too many extracts "go south" and we had to get ourselves out on our own.

Also - if I had the luxury of time - which this mission does - I would NOT go to the ORP in one night. It is AMAZING how different things look in the daytime compared to night-time. We have made an ORP at night - thinking it was a great spot - only to find out when it started to get light that were stuck out like a large ugly wart on a supermodels face. So I would like to see how things looked in the daytime as well as at night before I committ to stay there for an extended period (which is more than one night). Granted - sometimes one doesn't have that luxury - but this one does.

Hope this helps,

cheers

tire iron

Posted by: Romanknight Sep 12 2007, 11:34 AM

I guess I should've done a better job of explaining it, so I'll just plagiarize Poole:
"Traditionally, a rather slow and stealthy type of movement has been the trademark of US patrols and approach marches. While this deliberate type of movement is certainly hard to spot, makes minimal noise, and facilitates carrying heavy loads of ammunition, it doesn't contribute much to momentum. [...] While this is undoubtedly the best type of movement for certain circumstances, it is inappropriate for others; and interesting alternatives exist. Just as a solitary man must sometimes dash upright across an open area to limit his time of exposure, so too must a whole patrol sometimes use SPEED AS A TYPE OF SECURITY. [...] Speed might be useful for moving through sparse covers, or over hard and unobstructed ground. It might also be appropriate for outflanking an enemy or eluding his supporting arms. With more speed, a patrol can muster more martial spirit, cover more ground, make more enemy contact, and generate more surprise/momentum. [...] A patrol's quickness provides a type of security, because it limits exposure time and startles the opponent. Picture several members of an enemy patrol spotting (from a distance and through heavy underbrush) several members of a quickly moving friendly [to us] patrol. The enemy soldiers probably couldn't get the sighting confirmed by their leaders quickly enough to do much about it. At twilight, the sighting might only last a few seconds. Furthermore, the moving target would be hard to hit. [...] If an enemy patrol were to spot a quickly passing US infantry patrol, it probably couldn't get the sighting corroborated in time to do anything about it. Additionally, a fast moving target is more difficult to shoot. Any hunter can attest to that."
Notice, it is only A way, not THE way. Food for thought!
And about the NVA: "In Vietnam, small columns of NVA regularly RAN in from the mountains to attack major US installations. They needed speed to cross the cultivated coastal plain over paddy dikes and trails without being targeted by US supporting arms. By the time artillery observers got their mission cleared, the enemy had usually moved out of sight. Because these NVA columns zigzagged as they ran, it was difficult even to adjust preregistered fire onto them. Copses of bamboo and trees would obscure them from view. While obscured, they could sidestep the fire by simply changing direction. [...] The NVA combined speed with an understanding of camouflage and lighting conditions. They made their approach 'runs' at dusk dressed like bushes."
YMMV

Posted by: tire iron Sep 12 2007, 12:01 PM

rk,

Thanks for the quote - it does clarify what you are talking about - but - using Poole's words - what you have posted is NOT what we want to do in our given mission profile.

Our mission profile is RECONNAISSANCE.

QUOTE (Poole)
"Traditionally, a rather slow and stealthy type of movement has been the trademark of US patrols and approach marches. While this deliberate type of movement is certainly hard to spot, makes minimal noise, and facilitates carrying heavy loads of ammunition, it doesn't contribute much to momentum


Momentum is a key word for MOVEMENT TO ENGAGE. There is NO momentum to maintain for a reconnaissance patrol. The context of this whole paragraph from Poole is movement to engage.

QUOTE (Poole)
While this is undoubtedly the best type of movement for certain circumstances, it is inappropriate for others; and interesting alternatives exist. Just as a solitary man must sometimes dash upright across an open area to limit his time of exposure, so too must a whole patrol sometimes use SPEED AS A TYPE OF SECURITY. [...] Speed might be useful for moving through sparse covers, or over hard and unobstructed ground.


In other words - speed should be used for DA crossings - as mentioned in my posts above.

QUOTE (Poole)
It might also be appropriate for outflanking an enemy or eluding his supporting arms. With more speed, a patrol can muster more martial spirit, cover more ground, make more enemy contact, and generate more surprise/momentum. [...]


The above is for COMBAT patrols - NOT reconnaissance patrols.

QUOTE (Poole)
A patrol's quickness provides a type of security, because it limits exposure time and startles the opponent. Picture several members of an enemy patrol spotting (from a distance and through heavy underbrush) several members of a quickly moving friendly [to us] patrol. The enemy soldiers probably couldn't get the sighting confirmed by their leaders quickly enough to do much about it. At twilight, the sighting might only last a few seconds. Furthermore, the moving target would be hard to hit. [...] If an enemy patrol were to spot a quickly passing US infantry patrol, it probably couldn't get the sighting corroborated in time to do anything about it. Additionally, a fast moving target is more difficult to shoot. Any hunter can attest to that."


Again - this is for COMBAT patrols - NOT reconnaissance patrols. The whole concept here is while you are running to the objective - you don't really care if someone catches a glimpse of you or not - as in a few minutes all H*LL is going to break loose anyway. Whereas for a RECONNAISSANCE patrol - you are going to be in their AO for TWO WEEKS. That gives ANY "sighting" by the enemy plenty of time to come search for you.

QUOTE (Poole)
In Vietnam, small columns of NVA regularly RAN in from the mountains to attack major US installations. They needed speed to cross the cultivated coastal plain over paddy dikes and trails without being targeted by US supporting arms. By the time artillery observers got their mission cleared, the enemy had usually moved out of sight. Because these NVA columns zigzagged as they ran, it was difficult even to adjust preregistered fire onto them. Copses of bamboo and trees would obscure them from view. While obscured, they could sidestep the fire by simply changing direction. [...] The NVA combined speed with an understanding of camouflage and lighting conditions. They made their approach 'runs' at dusk dressed like bushes."


Again - this is for COMBAT patrols - not reconnaissance patrols.

Hope this helps,

cheers

tire iron

Posted by: Romanknight Sep 17 2007, 01:13 PM

Further clarification: I thought that the mission was to take the team from point A (home base) to point B (OP on the banks of the river), as fast, safe and uneventful as possible. NOT a reconnaissance of the streets between the two places. I understood that there were previous recons of those streets, of the neighborhoods with people, and of the "no-man's-land" in between. Momentum is for getting to the OP, with as many resources (moral, physical and material) intact, ready for the 2 weeks stay; not for engaging anybody. If I have to treat the area one block away from my home base as enemy territory, and move accordingly, what's the point in going over two miles away, across the river, to look for other enemies? In my scenario, speed makes sense (although, by no means, the only option). In yours, slow, methodical recon is the best option.

Posted by: tire iron Sep 17 2007, 02:28 PM

rk,

QUOTE (rk)
I thought that the mission was to take the team from point A (home base) to point B (OP on the banks of the river), as fast, safe and uneventful as possible.


Not quite. You have the priority listed as TIME first (fast) - which it clearly is not.

Time is NOT the priority for this mission.

Were it one of driving mission parameters - I could see the case being made for hurrying to the river.

The priority in this mission using your words is uneventful (no compromise), safe (no injuries), and then speed.

On a more practical note - let me ask you a series of questions. Please don't be offended - as they are not meant to offend - but to rather bring some acillary but related points to light more fully.

1. Have you ever humped with as much gear that approaches or equals your body weight?

2. If so:
a. how long (duration of time)
b. how far (distance)
c. what kind of terrain

3. Were you able to move "fast"?

4. If so:
a. how long were you able to move fast? (duration of time)
b. how far were you able to move fast? (distance)
c. how was security maintained

I have some experience (not just once or twice) of humping heavy recon loads over varying distances/times/terrains. I *never* felt that we could move fast while maintaining security under such a load. The load itself is too taxing. And it wasn't that we wanted to move slow - we couldn't do anything BUT move slow.

I fully realize that my experience is just that - MY experience. So - if you have similar but different experience - I am all ears - as this dog loves to learn new tricks - but only new tricks that work (have been battle tested).

What it seems like though is you have found a *new* movement technique and are trying to fit it into the mission.

My advice would be to let the mission fit the techniques instead. In other words - look at the mission parameters, and find the techniques that would best fit those parameters.

However - I could be wrong - and you may have experience in this area that is different than mine - so please - sound off.

cheers

tire iron

Posted by: Romanknight Sep 18 2007, 03:35 PM

I never had the (dis)pleasure to carry heavy loads in my short time in the army (well, one time, short time &not too heavy load, no big deal). I did some backpacking in the mountains way back when, when security was not an issue. How long, how fast? Don't remember. How heavy the load? Don't know/remember, although I remember one time, when I carried the backpack of a girl (young & stupid, I know!) up the mountain, and helping her at times, besides my stuff. Again, civilian activities.
My point is twofold. One, there shouldn't be active enemy activity on the road to the river. I did not read about it in your scenario. I know there are fortified neighborhoods, which I plan to avoid entirely, and then no-man's-land, without organized armed opposition. At most, drifters, displaced families, burned houses, wrecked cars, that stuff, but NO military forces. If this is not the case in the scenario, my bad. Let me spell it out: only when there is no known enemy opposition in the area, could speed be used as security. Only then. Second, the away team is NOT made of "snake-eaters", not the best high-speed/low-drag folks. They don't have the stamina, experience, even training of someone like you, ti. If they take too long on the way, they'll become tired, have less mental alertness, maybe disillusioned after a night of camping under the stars, in the cold November rain. It will only get worse, during the 2 weeks we intend the mission to last. They'll be more likely to make mistakes, overlook something because they're too tired, or just dream of a hot shower and a body rub from their significant other. Just human beings. We add "friction" to the situation, something we need to consider. Again, if this is not the case, my bad.
Putting "fast" first was a coincidence, I didn't mean to make it a priority. "Safely" should have been first.
Also, I made a suggestion, something to consider, for this, or for other missions. I cannot tell you what "speed" or "fast" means, 'cause I don't know; there's need for experimentation. You don't want to adopt it, you will not hurt my sensibilities, nor offend my feelings.
Now, can we move on? There's much left to be learned.

Posted by: Romanknight Dec 12 2007, 03:08 PM

1. I read in this thread about using radio comms for what I consider non-essential communications during the "road trip". Does HQ need to know if the Home Team moved from checkpoint War to checkpoint Millenium, at the risk of being picked up by hostile ears?
2. Is it wise to limit radio transmissions to emergency-only messages, like abort or change of ORP/LP/OP, and urgent info about the Animals (like 200 of them crossing the river), and not routine transmissions at regular intervals? Observe and write down what we learn about the Animals, in triplicate, and bring it back to the VAMC, and not transmit anything except emergency/urgent stuff?
3. 'Using a ministick, signalling can be accomplished by covering the ministick in a boonie hat, activating the stick and popping it in the mouth directly from the boonie hat. Using a green ministick in this manner, singalling can be accomplished by opening the lips to expose the end of the lightstick just enough to signal, using predetermined "blink codes". These codes would only need to cover a minimum of hand and arm signals, such as "All clear", "Stop/Halt", "Rally on me" and "Proceed".' This procedure seems to me very unwieldy, taking too long, too complicated for just a non-emergency message. Any alternative(s)?

Posted by: PipeRain Dec 12 2007, 03:40 PM

Well, for the sake of discussion, heres my thoughts...

QUOTE (Romanknight @ Dec 12 2007, 11:08 AM) *
1. I read in this thread about using radio comms for what I consider non-essential communications during the "road trip". Does HQ need to know if the Home Team moved from checkpoint War to checkpoint Millenium, at the risk of being picked up by hostile ears?


Well, a lot of commo can be carried out very discreetly. Squelch breaks etc. HQ is gonna have a map of the routes, and a simple squelch break can signify "Have reached checkpoint War, proceeding to chekcpoint Millennium, negative contact" and they will know exactly where the team is at and know all the essentials of whats going on.

QUOTE (Romanknight @ Dec 12 2007, 11:08 AM) *
2. Is it wise to limit radio transmissions to emergency-only messages, like abort or change of ORP/LP/OP, and urgent info about the Animals (like 200 of them crossing the river), and not routine transmissions at regular intervals? Observe and write down what we learn about the Animals, in triplicate, and bring it back to the VAMC, and not transmit anything except emergency/urgent stuff?


Well, I don't think the Home Team should be providing hourly weather updates or anything like that, but at some point they are gonna hafta let HQ know that they are in place, and what the situation is in the park across the river, and what the disposition of the Animals is. Agian, "One Time Pads" can greatly reduce the ability of anyone who does hear a transmissions ability to understand it is. If we have multi-lingual folks among the teams that can also help. If the commo folks ar espeaking French or German or something, now the Animals are gonna hafta really do some digging to discern the content of the communications. A small multi-element Yagi antenna can force the transmission down into the low single digit degree of dispersion range ( say 4-6 degrees) and if there isn't a darn good antenna almost directly in the line of sight, no one is gonna recieve anything, especially at low wattage. 1 or 2 watts will easily get a 2 meter HAM signal from the ORP to the HQ, with virtually no bleed-over.

QUOTE (Romanknight @ Dec 12 2007, 11:08 AM) *
3. 'Using a ministick, signalling can be accomplished by covering the ministick in a boonie hat, activating the stick and popping it in the mouth directly from the boonie hat. Using a green ministick in this manner, singalling can be accomplished by opening the lips to expose the end of the lightstick just enough to signal, using predetermined "blink codes". These codes would only need to cover a minimum of hand and arm signals, such as "All clear", "Stop/Halt", "Rally on me" and "Proceed".' This procedure seems to me very unwieldy, taking too long, too complicated for just a non-emergency message. Any alternative(s)?


Actually, its pretty simple. We have dome this very thing at FTX's. All you do is take your boonie hat/watch cap off, put the "firefly" in the cap, break and shake it, and pop it in your mouth directly from the hat. Then it just rides along your gumline, like a chaw of Beech-Nut until needed. They will stay lit for 6 hours or so, then put the expended one in your pocket, and replace it with another one. It takes less than a minute to accomplish the whole task, and you are set for 6 hours or so. Essentailly, it would allow a team to spread out a bit more in darkness than they would otherwise have to if depending on "tugs on shirt sleeves", hand and arm signals in darkness or "Body Whispers".

Posted by: Romanknight Dec 12 2007, 03:52 PM

ti,
You wrote: 'Good question - but "NO" - the Home Team will NOT be part of the QRF. The Home Team will most probably help vector the QRF to the Away Team though...'
What is the reason for that?

Posted by: Romanknight Dec 12 2007, 04:04 PM

PR,
thanks for your clarifications. About radio comms, I was thinking (fearing?) about other forces monitoring the airways. Another gang, or the army from the Postman, or someone in an enclave, who doesn't like another professional force in action =competition. We don't need to advertise the presence of a trained and equipped military force in action, it might attract a bigger and badder enemy.
Good idea on using the foreign languages!

Posted by: tire iron Dec 12 2007, 11:35 PM

rk,

A. They are not equiped to be the QRF - they are on foot.

B. We don't have *air support* of any kind - so they are in the best position to give intel from "up there"

C. "Up there" intel is most valuable when the QRF is needed

Hope this helps,

cheers

tire iron

Posted by: Romanknight Dec 13 2007, 01:57 PM

ti
Yeah, it makes sense. My concern was the time needed for the QRF to drive from HQ to across the river, on roads littered with wreckage and trash. A couple of flat tires will ruin your day, or one dead engine because of bad gasoline! With the small number of trained folks we have, QRF could be too little and/or too late to save the away team. Then, we could have one third of our Meat Eaters as prisoners of roused and fully alerted Animals, and not enough resources to save them. Worse, they could be dead, and the Animals alerted on our presence, and attacking us, left without one third of our best soldiers. Is it too much to ask for a pair of USMC Cobra attack helicopters and a company of mechanized infantry as QRF? drool.gif
BTW, I edited my questions on previous posts.

Posted by: PipeRain Dec 13 2007, 05:18 PM

Just to add my $0.02, it would seem to me that part of the Home Teams job would be to return that sort of intel to HQ so that if a QRF is needed, they can have a good idea of how to get where they are needed. However, anytime one goes into truly denied territory, one really shouldn't count on getting bailed out, and must plan accordingly.

Standing by for ti's definitive input....

Posted by: tire iron Dec 14 2007, 10:15 AM

PR is right - again!

cheers

tire iron

Posted by: Romanknight Dec 14 2007, 02:36 PM

ti, can you clarify the following:
1. The Home Team sits put, waits for and directs the QRF, no matter how long it will take the QRF to get there?
2. What if the Animals move the prisoners to a location no longer under observation by the HT?
2. The Home Team, under no circumstances, will NOT move to rescue the Away Team?

Posted by: tire iron Dec 14 2007, 03:10 PM

rk,

Please give your answers for the above - and cite supporting reasons - and what the potential outcome may be....

I like the way you are doing some serious thinking on this - keep it up. thumbsup1.gif

cheers

tire iron

Posted by: Romanknight Dec 14 2007, 03:35 PM

My $0.02
Copy and paste from another thread: This time, I wasn't thinking outside the box, just trying to see how best to obtain more info. We don't know where exactly &what is happening in the Animals' camp. It's a big park, with lots of buildings around, and, being November, I expect the gang to be holed up inside, somewhere. We still have the Away Team, only they wait a few days, observe from our side of the river, compare notes with the HT, decide on one or more important targets for close surveillance, then move across the river.
a. We're talking SHTF and TEOTWAWKI here, not military ops against a professional enemy. if we have bad guys with the ability to booby-trap stuff, patrolling aggressively on our side of the river, we have bigger issues. The sooner we find out, the better.
b. Isn't this the danger to every rescue mission? This time, if the HT moves fast, the bad guys are still reacting, don't have time to get reinforcements and plan an effective ambush. I see one of their patrols, 20 ppl max minus casualties, capturing the AT, and the 6 men HT, acting on the spot, first calls the QRF to the rescue, then moves to attack immediately, before the Animals move the prisoners who knows where. I count on the premise that the Animals do not have the capability to fully mobilize all their armed men fast enough, being busy raping &pilaging. Only the on-the-spot recon will prove me right or wrong.
c. I don't intend to switch anybody. We still have one HT and one AT, each doing what has been agreed upon. What changes is the timing of the AT moving in enemy territory (after a few days of recon across the river), and the option of using the HT as the first QRF, trying to free the captured AT, before the animals reinforce, then backing up back to our side of the river, towards our motorized QRF.
Clear as mud?
Now, for your answers
1. No. HT summons the QRF, radios what and where and whom, then -if the TL decides it is feasible- moves rapidly and attacks vigorously the Animals, before reinforcements arrive and the prisoners are moved. If the AT is captured by a small enemy patrol, there is a good chance that strong and fast action by the HT can free the AT, before the Animals reinforce; our motorized QRF (if it arrives at all) will provide reinforcing man- and firepower. If there are 100 Animals around the AT, obviously, 6 men will not succeed, so, not attempt will be made. Depends on specific circumstances, but we need the flexibility to consider such a reaction.
2. This is needs to be decided upon by our chain of command, before heading out.
3. No. HT must have the option, based on circumstances, and decided by the TL, to intervene.
Outcome? Miss Cleo is on permanent leave, so I don't know. It will depend on sound judgement and decision-making on the spot, and good execution of whatever plan is decided upon.

Posted by: tire iron Dec 14 2007, 03:45 PM

Point #1 - Remember that once the HT moves - you just became blind. I'm not at all sure that if the AT gets hit - that that is the best time to be blind. Ten minutes or less from the time the HT leaves their vantage point and the whole scenario will have changed - and you've got no clear idea of how it has changed. Granted - it may have changed to the point where the HT would be of no value anyway (beyond or out of sight of the HT) - but by moving the HT you guaranteed yourself that you now are in fact blind to the overall situation.

Point #2 - Since you have lost your "Eyes in the Sky" - the HT (pretend you are member of said HT) - you are now running in the direction of the enemy with ZERO intel on what the enemy is doing. Are they vectoring teams to cut off the rescuers avenues of approach?? Are *you* headed right into an ambush?

So - are you *sure* you want to lose your eyes in the sky?

cheers

tire iron

Posted by: Romanknight Dec 16 2007, 09:53 PM

Again, the name of the game is flexibility.
It depends on the state of the roads, how fast can the QRF arrive on the scene. If we're transposed to Stalingrad in winter 42-43, or Beirut in the 80's, with roads impassable because of wrecked cars, downed trees and ruble, how fast can our road-bound QRF drive? What about one flat tire, or two? What good is the holed up HT, up high in the sky, transmitting a play-by-play report on the bad things happening to the AT, if the would-be rescuers are stuck, half a mile away? This is something that the Home Team Leader needs to have full flexibility to make a decision, based on local conditions (what he learns during the insertion).
One other thing I consider: we are ahead in the OODA loop of the gang. We have a recon mission going, while they're out looting and pilaging. If they are out in force, patrolling aggressively, like a well-trained and disciplined military elite unit, well, then we have a bigger problem, and we'll find out the hard way. Sooner than later, which could save our bacon, back at the VMAC. Another reason why I propose long-distance observation first, by both teams, from different locations, and comparing notes before one heads out.
I don't like my suggestion, any more than you do (well, don't), but it seems that -under certain circumstance, therefore, flexibility- it will bring us in less-deep doo-doo!
Is there anything else about this topic?

FOR LIKE MINDED PATRIOTS WHO WANT TO SURVIVE ANY AND ALL SITUATIONS THAT THEY MAY FACE.